Qt-interest Archive, January 2008
AW: Nokia to acquire Trolltech
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Message 16 in thread
Hi,
I don't want to start another flame war - but as german commercial
customer I'm seriously worried about the future of Qt.
Nokia is known for changing their software strategies quite often -
as mentioned of other list members in this thread before.
Therefore your last mail is - and it's ok from your position as employee -
a little bit too optimistic and it's more realistic that nobody at Trolltech
can say for sure what Nokia will do in one or two years.
Further now Trolltech gets less interesting for the many competitors
of Nokia - so a success in the smartphone and embedded market
is only possible on Nokia platforms - other manufacturers never would
choose the platform of their biggest competitor.
Next issue is the currently very bad reputation of Nokia in Germany -
please read the newspapers, maybe then you can understand that
germans actually have very very big problems with Nokia.
This is quite painful for german software developers using Nokias Qt -
like me.
The acqusition won't work without loosing some potential partners
and customers and the formerly very big reputation of Trolltech.
Now Trolltech is no more a neutral software developer - now it's a
hardware / manufacturer dependant company.
Of course, nobody at Trolltech can share and understand worries
of commercial customers and I'm sure nobody at Trolltech ever minds
such worries and side effects.
And it's very sad that noone of your sales team answers the questions
of their commercial customers.
Kind regards,
Christian
Message 17 in thread
You make some valid points about the concerns of commercial customers (like
myself).
For our purpose we are fortunately not in any competition with Nokia, but
still the fear stays that Nokia changes mind in some not to far time and
abandon the Qt commercial product. We chose Qt for our long term
developments after careful evaluation. One of the most important argument
was that its the main product of a healthy company and was not in danger th
be dropped by some so called manager for the mood of the day (as did IBM for
example with VisualAge C++ for Windows which we used before). The argument
is invalid now, for Nokia 100M is peanuts and the income from the Qt
commercial licenses is absolutely nothing to think about for a single
second.
What surprises me most in this deal however is not that Trolltech was sold
at all, but that the main stockholders agreed to sell this amazing company
so much under worth. As other examples such as MySQL show, it would have
worth at least a magnitude of 10 or more - in that case I could understand a
least why they accepted the offer.
Message 18 in thread
From a stockholder point of view... This is a gold mine. They got a 50%
bump over previous valuation.
The shares were trading at 10, and they sold at 15
In reality, I think the problem was they had an income of about 30
million USD, which was not enough to support the growth they wanted.
Scott
________________________________
From: Acenes [mailto:acenes@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 5:42 AM
To: qt-interest@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Nokia to acquire Trolltech
You make some valid points about the concerns of commercial customers
(like myself).
For our purpose we are fortunately not in any competition with Nokia,
but still the fear stays that Nokia changes mind in some not to far time
and abandon the Qt commercial product. We chose Qt for our long term
developments after careful evaluation. One of the most important
argument was that its the main product of a healthy company and was not
in danger th be dropped by some so called manager for the mood of the
day (as did IBM for example with VisualAge C++ for Windows which we used
before). The argument is invalid now, for Nokia 100M is peanuts and the
income from the Qt commercial licenses is absolutely nothing to think
about for a single second.
What surprises me most in this deal however is not that Trolltech was
sold at all, but that the main stockholders agreed to sell this amazing
company so much under worth. As other examples such as MySQL show, it
would have worth at least a magnitude of 10 or more - in that case I
could understand a least why they accepted the offer.
Message 19 in thread
> ...which was not enough to support the growth they wanted.
This is a point no one seems to be considering. To take Qt to the
"next level", they really need an infusion of cash. Cross platform
standards (like Qt) are good for the industry as a whole, even
somewhat proprietary ones. The most successful hardware platform
companies learn early on that "it's the software stupid". Software
sells hardware, not the other way around. Apple is a perfect existence
proof of that point. My own experience may not translate perfectly,
but I hope it does: Early in the 3D graphics card/PC Gaming business,
everybody had their own way of doing things. Each vendor had a
proprietary API that developers had to code to, limiting their market.
As soon as standard API's such as Direct 3D and OpenGL began being
adopted developers became far more productive, were able to ship more
titles to more customers across the board, and the industry as a whole
bloomed. Qt is having that same effect to some degree by enabling many
developers to broaden their reach, thus enabling more developers to
make more money, to invest more, and make better and better
applications, which then drive more hardware sales (few people buy an
Apple Computer just to put it over their mantel as a trophy...
right?). Individual hardware vendors then add value with superior
hardware and value added software, while still making live easier on
the developers (even their own developers), who are then feeding the
loop again.
So, how about Nokia invests in Qt... they get a first class
development platform. Qt's popularity and quality/toolset grows, and
becomes a widespread industry standard. Nokia then spins Trolltech off
again as a separate company and/or sells it making a tidy profit in
the mean-time. After 20+ years in the industry, I've seen this
scenario play out more than once too.
Of course I could be completely and blindly wrong, and we are all just
screwed.
However, I'm not quite ready to jump off any bridges just yet ;-)
Richard
On Jan 29, 2008, at 8:46 AM, Scott Aron Bloom wrote:
> From a stockholder point of view… This is a gold mine. They got a
> 50% bump over previous valuation.
>
> The shares were trading at 10, and they sold at 15
>
> In reality, I think the problem was they had an income of about 30
> million USD, which was not enough to support the growth they wanted.
>
> Scott
>
> From: Acenes [mailto:acenes@xxxxxxx]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 5:42 AM
> To: qt-interest@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Nokia to acquire Trolltech
>
> You make some valid points about the concerns of commercial
> customers (like myself).
>
> For our purpose we are fortunately not in any competition with
> Nokia, but still the fear stays that Nokia changes mind in some not
> to far time and abandon the Qt commercial product. We chose Qt for
> our long term developments after careful evaluation. One of the most
> important argument was that its the main product of a healthy
> company and was not in danger th be dropped by some so called
> manager for the mood of the day (as did IBM for example with
> VisualAge C++ for Windows which we used before). The argument is
> invalid now, for Nokia 100M is peanuts and the income from the Qt
> commercial licenses is absolutely nothing to think about for a
> single second.
>
> What surprises me most in this deal however is not that Trolltech
> was sold at all, but that the main stockholders agreed to sell this
> amazing company so much under worth. As other examples such as MySQL
> show, it would have worth at least a magnitude of 10 or more - in
> that case I could understand a least why they accepted the offer.
>
>
>
Message 20 in thread
While I'm not jumping off any bridges yet, I'm not yelling whoopie
either...
While your scenario is a possibility, so is the scenario that hit TclTK
or CodeWarrior..
Great software platforms bought by very large companies with the promise
of growing the platforms (Sun bought TclTK and Motorola CodeWarrior)
Both were disasters...
Scott
________________________________
From: Richard S. Wright Jr. [mailto:rwright@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 10:00 AM
To: Qt Interest
Subject: Re: Nokia to acquire Trolltech
> ...which was not enough to support the growth they wanted.
This is a point no one seems to be considering. To take Qt to the "next
level", they really need an infusion of cash. Cross platform standards
(like Qt) are good for the industry as a whole, even somewhat
proprietary ones. The most successful hardware platform companies learn
early on that "it's the software stupid". Software sells hardware, not
the other way around. Apple is a perfect existence proof of that point.
My own experience may not translate perfectly, but I hope it does: Early
in the 3D graphics card/PC Gaming business, everybody had their own way
of doing things. Each vendor had a proprietary API that developers had
to code to, limiting their market. As soon as standard API's such as
Direct 3D and OpenGL began being adopted developers became far more
productive, were able to ship more titles to more customers across the
board, and the industry as a whole bloomed. Qt is having that same
effect to some degree by enabling many developers to broaden their
reach, thus enabling more developers to make more money, to invest more,
and make better and better applications, which then drive more hardware
sales (few people buy an Apple Computer just to put it over their mantel
as a trophy... right?). Individual hardware vendors then add value with
superior hardware and value added software, while still making live
easier on the developers (even their own developers), who are then
feeding the loop again.
So, how about Nokia invests in Qt... they get a first class development
platform. Qt's popularity and quality/toolset grows, and becomes a
widespread industry standard. Nokia then spins Trolltech off again as a
separate company and/or sells it making a tidy profit in the mean-time.
After 20+ years in the industry, I've seen this scenario play out more
than once too.
Of course I could be completely and blindly wrong, and we are all just
screwed.
However, I'm not quite ready to jump off any bridges just yet ;-)
Richard
On Jan 29, 2008, at 8:46 AM, Scott Aron Bloom wrote:
From a stockholder point of view... This is a gold mine. They got a 50%
bump over previous valuation.
The shares were trading at 10, and they sold at 15
In reality, I think the problem was they had an income of about 30
million USD, which was not enough to support the growth they wanted.
Scott
________________________________
From: Acenes [mailto:acenes@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 5:42 AM
To: qt-interest@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Nokia to acquire Trolltech
You make some valid points about the concerns of commercial customers
(like myself).
For our purpose we are fortunately not in any competition with Nokia,
but still the fear stays that Nokia changes mind in some not to far time
and abandon the Qt commercial product. We chose Qt for our long term
developments after careful evaluation. One of the most important
argument was that its the main product of a healthy company and was not
in danger th be dropped by some so called manager for the mood of the
day (as did IBM for example with VisualAge C++ for Windows which we used
before). The argument is invalid now, for Nokia 100M is peanuts and the
income from the Qt commercial licenses is absolutely nothing to think
about for a single second.
What surprises me most in this deal however is not that Trolltech was
sold at all, but that the main stockholders agreed to sell this amazing
company so much under worth. As other examples such as MySQL show, it
would have worth at least a magnitude of 10 or more - in that case I
could understand a least why they accepted the offer.
Message 21 in thread
On Tuesday 29 January 2008, Christian DÃhn wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I don't want to start another flame war - but as german commercial
> customer I'm seriously worried about the future of Qt.
>
> Nokia is known for changing their software strategies quite often -
> as mentioned of other list members in this thread before.
So does every company in business. You cannot grow, if you do not change.
>
> Therefore your last mail is - and it's ok from your position as employee -
> a little bit too optimistic
Yes, possibly. and I have the advantage of having spoken to people from Nokia.
> and it's more realistic that nobody at
> Trolltech can say for sure what Nokia will do in one or two years.
Can anyone say _for sure_ what they are going to be doing in two years time?
I can tell you this... if this deal goes through - Nokia will be working
_together_ _WITH_ Trolltech.
>
> Further now Trolltech gets less interesting for the many competitors
> of Nokia - so a success in the smartphone and embedded market
> is only possible on Nokia platforms - other manufacturers never would
> choose the platform of their biggest competitor.
>
> Next issue is the currently very bad reputation of Nokia in Germany -
> please read the newspapers, maybe then you can understand that
> germans actually have very very big problems with Nokia.
I am sure there are many other companies moving from Germany, not just Nokia.
As well, I do not think it was an easy decision for anyone.
>
> This is quite painful for german software developers using Nokias Qt -
> like me.
It's not Nokia's Qt - it's Trolltech's Qt. No one calls it AOL's Firefox.
>
> The acqusition won't work without loosing some potential partners
> and customers and the formerly very big reputation of Trolltech.
>
> Now Trolltech is no more a neutral software developer - now it's a
> hardware / manufacturer dependant company.
No, we will only develop what we already do - the greatest cross platform
toolkit and embedded device gui for Linux. Trolltech is a software company,
always has been - always will be.
>
> Of course, nobody at Trolltech can share and understand worries
> of commercial customers and I'm sure nobody at Trolltech ever minds
> such worries and side effects.
<sarcasm> Yes, you're right. No one at Trolltech is human or has families
futures on the line.</sarcasm>
>
> And it's very sad that noone of your sales team answers the questions
> of their commercial customers.
That's because we are bound by laws and regulations. There can be large fines
involved.
Nokia wants to work _WITH_ Trolltech, AND its current and future customers.
They aren't dropping the ball. They want to help us grow. They want to make
Qt and Qtopia better. That can only help you as a customer.
>
> Kind regards,
> Christian
--
[ signature omitted ]
Message 22 in thread
Just some comments...
On Tue, January 29, 2008 19:55, Lorn Potter wrote:
> On Tuesday 29 January 2008, Christian DÀhn wrote:
>> Nokia is known for changing their software strategies quite often -
>> as mentioned of other list members in this thread before.
> So does every company in business. You cannot grow, if you do not change.
That's correct, but changing your strategy that often is different from
evolution or development, and that's what makes your customers worry.
BTW, I'm not (yet) one of your commercial customers, I'm an open source
supporter and shouldn't be worried that much... but I _AM_ !?
>> Further now Trolltech gets less interesting for the many competitors
>> of Nokia - so a success in the smartphone and embedded market is only
>> possible on Nokia platforms - other manufacturers never would choose the
>> platform of their biggest competitor.
>>
>> Next issue is the currently very bad reputation of Nokia in Germany -
>> please read the newspapers, maybe then you can understand that germans
>> actually have very very big problems with Nokia.
>
> I am sure there are many other companies moving from Germany, not just
> Nokia.
> As well, I do not think it was an easy decision for anyone.
It's been an easy decision for Nokia's management, it's just hard now after
they realize what they've done to their own image... you should not oversee
that this decision wasn't made because the plant was (is) not profitable,
the profit was just not high _enough_ for the shareholder's ROI
expectations.
>> This is quite painful for german software developers using Nokias Qt -
>> like me.
>
> It's not Nokia's Qt - it's Trolltech's Qt. No one calls it AOL's Firefox.
And if you call it "my Qt", what's the difference?
>> Now Trolltech is no more a neutral software developer - now it's a
>> hardware / manufacturer dependant company.
>
> No, we will only develop what we already do - the greatest cross platform
> toolkit and embedded device gui for Linux. Trolltech is a software company,
> always has been - always will be.
Yes, Qt _is_ the greatest cross platform GUI toolkit I'm aware of. But I'm
really not convinced that this will be a long-term truth after the
acquisition is done. But I hope the best for you Trolls and all of us (not
so) happy (as before) developers...
>> Of course, nobody at Trolltech can share and understand worries
>> of commercial customers and I'm sure nobody at Trolltech ever minds such
>> worries and side effects.
>
> <sarcasm> Yes, you're right. No one at Trolltech is human or has families
> futures on the line.</sarcasm>
<truth>
Then you should start to worry yourself :)!
</truth>
Regards, René
--
[ signature omitted ]
Message 23 in thread
On Wednesday 30 January 2008, R. Reucher wrote:
> BTW, I'm not (yet) one of your commercial customers, I'm an open source
> supporter and shouldn't be worried that much... but I _AM_ !?
I could say 'dont worry', but I wont. Concern is good, but worrying about
something is not constructive and bad for your health.
:)
> It's been an easy decision for Nokia's management, it's just hard now after
> they realize what they've done to their own image... you should not oversee
> that this decision wasn't made because the plant was (is) not profitable,
> the profit was just not high _enough_ for the shareholder's ROI
> expectations.
I really doubt it was an easy decision. Nokia employs humans, not robots.
>
> >> This is quite painful for german software developers using Nokias Qt -
> >> like me.
> >
> > It's not Nokia's Qt - it's Trolltech's Qt. No one calls it AOL's Firefox.
>
> And if you call it "my Qt", what's the difference?
The name. The perception.
>
> >> Now Trolltech is no more a neutral software developer - now it's a
> >> hardware / manufacturer dependant company.
> >
> > No, we will only develop what we already do - the greatest cross platform
> > toolkit and embedded device gui for Linux. Trolltech is a software
> > company, always has been - always will be.
>
> Yes, Qt _is_ the greatest cross platform GUI toolkit I'm aware of. But I'm
> really not convinced that this will be a long-term truth after the
> acquisition is done. But I hope the best for you Trolls and all of us (not
> so) happy (as before) developers...
>
> >> Of course, nobody at Trolltech can share and understand worries
> >> of commercial customers and I'm sure nobody at Trolltech ever minds such
> >> worries and side effects.
> >
> > <sarcasm> Yes, you're right. No one at Trolltech is human or has families
> > futures on the line.</sarcasm>
>
> <truth>
> Then you should start to worry yourself :)!
> </truth>
I was concerned, but now I have thought about it, and listened to Nokia people
and Nokia reasons/plans, I am less concerned.
I have been developing open source apps for 10 years, and most of that time
using Qt and Qtopia. So I can see the other side of the wall very well.
>
> Regards, René
--
[ signature omitted ]
Message 24 in thread
On Tue, January 29, 2008 20:42, Lorn Potter wrote:
> I could say 'dont worry', but I wont. Concern is good, but worrying about
> something is not constructive and bad for your health. :)
Yeah, that's true :)!
I'm usually an optimistic and funny person. But I've seen those acquisitions
a lot of times before, and what happened to the companies which were bought.
Even the one I'm working for... not all of the buying companies have "bad"
interests, but Nokia's management has already proven that it is not very
much interested in its employees' fates. Perhaps you are in a better
situation, if they've now learned from it... but I have my doubts.
>> It's been an easy decision for Nokia's management, it's just hard now
>> after they realize what they've done to their own image... you should not
>> oversee that this decision wasn't made because the plant was (is) not
>> profitable, the profit was just not high _enough_ for the shareholder's
>> ROI expectations.
>
> I really doubt it was an easy decision. Nokia employs humans, not robots.
Sure no robots, but my personal experience is that those who call themselves
"managers" and not "entrepreneurs" have learned to see just numbers and
ignore the rest. At least some of them. And sorry, but Nokia's _managers_
appear as such. And I do not mean Nokia - the product - or Nokia's employees
in general.
>> And if you call it "my Qt", what's the difference?
>
> The name. The perception.
The concern is that you as Trolltech will lose more and more control over
Qt... and that's bad for all of us. It doesn't matter what it's called :)!
> I was concerned, but now I have thought about it, and listened to Nokia
> people and Nokia reasons/plans, I am less concerned. I have been developing
> open source apps for 10 years, and most of that time using Qt and Qtopia. So
> I can see the other side of the wall very well.
I'd be interested to see what convinced you so much... and really hope
you're right!
Cheers, René
--
[ signature omitted ]
Message 25 in thread
I've worked for two companies that got bought (they say merged with) bigger
companies. One continued the products from the smaller company, the other
dropped them after a few years.
The big difference was whether the product fit into the big company's
strategy. If the product didn't fit into the big company's main products or
overall strategy, the product eventually died.
I can see that QTopia will fit nicely into Nokia's strategy and product
line. But would someone please explain how the Qt cross platform development
system fits into Nokia? I cannot find anything that Nokia does that is not
phone related.
Keith
**Please do not reply to me, reply to the list.**
--
[ signature omitted ]
Message 26 in thread
On Tue, January 29, 2008 21:23, Keith Esau wrote:
> I can see that QTopia will fit nicely into Nokia's strategy and product
> line. But would someone please explain how the Qt cross platform development
> system fits into Nokia? I cannot find anything that Nokia does that is not
> phone related.
Good point! I think it sums up the _major_ concern that all of us have very
nicely...
--
[ signature omitted ]
Message 27 in thread
>> But would someone please explain how the Qt cross platform development
> > system fits into Nokia? I cannot find anything that Nokia does that is not
> > phone related.
I believe with the advent of the OLPC and the ASUS EEE PC that run on a flavor of Linux and that compete with cell phone marketing share. Nokia would be wise to look at these subnotebooks and offer a competing product.
Christopher
_________________________________________________________________
Message 28 in thread
Some of the subnotebooks fit into your purse and have skype running on them.
Christopher
From: probst_christopher@xxxxxxxxxxx
To: rene.reucher@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; qt-interest@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: AW: Nokia to acquire Trolltech
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:38:50 +0000
>> But would someone please explain how the Qt cross platform development
> > system fits into Nokia? I cannot find anything that Nokia does that is not
> > phone related.
I believe with the advent of the OLPC and the ASUS EEE PC that run on a flavor of Linux and that compete with cell phone marketing share. Nokia would be wise to look at these subnotebooks and offer a competing product.
Christopher
_________________________________________________________________
Message 29 in thread
Nokia develop software for moviles that comunicate with software on other
hardware devices. They develop both the software for the phone and the
software for your Desktop hardware of choice, if they owns Qt is most easy
for then create software that is easy to integrate with third party
platforms. For example if you buy a nokia phone it has software for run on
various Windows os , and other OS ,.but tomorrow your phone needs to play
with lots of new devices and you must need software for play with then. The
best way for do it this is maintain Qt multi platform toolkit as it and get
it farther, faster and greater.
Regards
On Jan 29, 2008 9:30 PM, R. Reucher <rene.reucher@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> On Tue, January 29, 2008 21:23, Keith Esau wrote:
> > I can see that QTopia will fit nicely into Nokia's strategy and product
> > line. But would someone please explain how the Qt cross platform
> development
> > system fits into Nokia? I cannot find anything that Nokia does that is
> not
> > phone related.
> Good point! I think it sums up the _major_ concern that all of us have
> very
> nicely...
> --
> Renà Reucher
> Tel: +49 160 7115802
> FAX: +49 6359 205423
> rene.reucher@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.batcom-it.net/
>
> --
> To unsubscribe - send a mail to qt-interest-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with
> "unsubscribe" in the subject or the body.
> List archive and information: http://lists.trolltech.com/qt-interest/
>
>
Message 30 in thread
Really? So you think Nokia is going to be benevolent and make sure
that QTopia runs on all Linux based phones...or just Nokia's. Sure,
there is the open source option, but you have to open source your
innovative phone software for Nokia to see.
On Jan 29, 2008, at 12:42 PM, pepone.onrez wrote:
>
> Nokia develop software for moviles that comunicate with software on
> other hardware devices. They develop both the software for the phone
> and the software for your Desktop hardware of choice, if they owns
> Qt is most easy for then create software that is easy to
> integrate with third party platforms. For example if you buy a
> nokia phone it has software for run on various Windows os , and
> other OS ,.but tomorrow your phone needs to play with lots of new
> devices and you must need software for play with then. The best way
> for do it this is maintain Qt multi platform toolkit as it and get
> it farther, faster and greater.
>
> Regards
> On Jan 29, 2008 9:30 PM, R. Reucher <rene.reucher@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> On Tue, January 29, 2008 21:23, Keith Esau wrote:
> > I can see that QTopia will fit nicely into Nokia's strategy and
> product
> > line. But would someone please explain how the Qt cross platform
> development
> > system fits into Nokia? I cannot find anything that Nokia does
> that is not
> > phone related.
> Good point! I think it sums up the _major_ concern that all of us
> have very
> nicely...
> --
> René Reucher
> Tel: +49 160 7115802
> FAX: +49 6359 205423
> rene.reucher@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.batcom-it.net/
>
> --
> To unsubscribe - send a mail to qt-interest-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> with "unsubscribe" in the subject or the body.
> List archive and information: http://lists.trolltech.com/qt-interest/
>
>
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