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Andreas Pakulat wrote: > On 11.03.08 16:59:34, Arvid Ephraim Picciani wrote: >> On Tuesday 11 March 2008 16:26:56 Andrï Pïnitz wrote: >>> Please elaborate why that looks like a "poke from the KDE people". >> kde needs gpl3 for some 3rdparty libs. so they get it. unfortunatly i have no >> official email traffic. its good hidden how kde does influence TT, but some >> discussions about it happened at devdays. it's obvious how fast Qt became >> gplv3 after that. > > ROFL. sorry, but thats complete nonsense. The issue about 3rd party libs > going GPL3 (IIRC the first one that kdelibs already uses is samba) was > raised shortly after GPL3 was released. Thats almost half a year > _before_ TT decided to finally go GPL3. > > And there were some public mails about this (I think kde-core-devel, > possibly kde-licensing and kde-release). Specifically it was said that > TT is looking into that, but needs time to let the lawyers look at the > GPL3 text. > >>>> Why does kde get money from you? Hell no, i dont want money. I just want >>>> you to admit it. >>> Certainly not my decision so I don't know the reasoning. But I >>> would expect any showcase of Qt of a size similar to KDE would >>> get the same kind of support as KDE does. For me this just >>> makes a lot of business sense. >> opera, psi, qwt, qxt, cutebox, qdevelop, etc etc etc >> kde is just big becouse it's colaboration of different apps. > > Right, thats why you call it a DesktopEnvironment :) > >> and as i stated in my very first email i'd like to form a similar alliance >> with qt-only apps. if you would only LET ME. > > Hmm, but from a certain viewpoint KDE already is a qt-only-DE, it builds > a DE using Qt as base technology (it doesn't use any other toolkit as > widely as Qt). But for some things there simply are no qt-only apps, for > example I haven't yet come across a pure Qt WM, There is http://www.alinden.mynetcologne.de/qlwm/ I think there is one other, but I cannot remember. As well as Qtopia. > or a qt-only terminal There is qterminal for qtopia. only uses a minimal qtopia libs, and can easily be a qt only app. > app, or a qt-only mail client. Or a qt-only panel/desktop. Qtmail and Qtopia! > A WM can't be done purely in Qt, its always going to need to talk to X11 sure it can! Qt Embedded does it! :) > -- [ signature omitted ]
On 12.03.08 07:11:30, Lorn Potter wrote: > Andreas Pakulat wrote: >> On 11.03.08 16:59:34, Arvid Ephraim Picciani wrote: >>> and as i stated in my very first email i'd like to form a similar >>> alliance with qt-only apps. if you would only LET ME. >> >> Hmm, but from a certain viewpoint KDE already is a qt-only-DE, it builds >> a DE using Qt as base technology (it doesn't use any other toolkit as >> widely as Qt). But for some things there simply are no qt-only apps, for >> example I haven't yet come across a pure Qt WM, > > There is > http://www.alinden.mynetcologne.de/qlwm/ Interesting... > I think there is one other, but I cannot remember. > As well as Qtopia. > >> or a qt-only terminal > There is qterminal for qtopia. only uses a minimal qtopia libs, and can > easily be a qt only app. > >> app, or a qt-only mail client. Or a qt-only panel/desktop. > Qtmail and Qtopia! > >> A WM can't be done purely in Qt, its always going to need to talk to X11 > > sure it can! Qt Embedded does it! Thanks for correcting me, indeed I didn't think about the embedded stuff :) But then again, I never even had a device which runs such stuff, so don't blame me for not knowing these :) Andreas -- [ signature omitted ]
On Tuesday 11 March 2008 22:54:26 Andreas Pakulat wrote: > don't blame me for not knowing these :) Andreas, i blame you for the same thing i blame all of you kde people: you dont even know the trolltech page. becouse all information is there! of course its (fortunatly) not (yet) part of the kde biotop. -> http://trolltech.com/developer/community You don't know the basic ideas of Qt. "Integration" isn't something I invented. It's the very reason Qt exists. -> storry told by Eirik Chambe-Eng. "parkbench" should ring a bell for the real Qt people put there. And of course for claiming KDE beeing the only source of Qt programs. -> http://qt-apps.org/ at the same time, KDE has major influence on Trolltech. this is why we suffer. this is why I complain. -- [ signature omitted ]
On 11.03.08 23:23:39, Arvid Ephraim Picciani wrote: > On Tuesday 11 March 2008 22:54:26 Andreas Pakulat wrote: > > don't blame me for not knowing these :) > Andreas, > i blame you for the same thing i blame all of you kde people: > you dont even know the trolltech page. becouse all information is there! of > course its (fortunatly) not (yet) part of the kde biotop. I know that page, I know all those community pages exist. I don't browse them much and neither did I when I wasn't involved with KDE (other than as a user of the DE). The main reason is that I don't like those forum-style discussions, I'm more of a push-person (i.e. I like to get information pushed towards me, not having to pull them). And if google shows up a page on one of the sites I surely read that. But really Google is my main entry point any time I hit a problem I can't solve with the API docs. > You don't know the basic ideas of Qt. I guess I don't :( Got a Link so that I can educate myself? > "Integration" isn't something I invented. It's the very reason Qt > exists. Right, but integration needs work from both sides. Qt needs hooks in the platform to integrate itself into it. Or work on the lowest level (X11 on unix/linux) and only supply some hooks to change specific things for the platform (like a style plugin). > -> storry told by Eirik Chambe-Eng. "parkbench" should ring a bell for the > real Qt people put there. Got a link? So far google didn't really help, except that I'm now pretty well-informed about Qt's and TT's history :) (which is nice anyway). But wasn't Qt originally about having the same GUI-Toolkit API on all platforms? Because all alternatives pretty much just sucked? At least thats what I get from the stuff I read about its history so far. But then again, I'm not particularly good at reading between the lines... > And of course for claiming KDE beeing the only source of Qt programs. Where did I say that KDE is the only source of Qt programs? In fact KDE is no source of Qt programs whatsoever, its the source of KDE programs ;) > at the same time, KDE has major influence on Trolltech. According to this thread thats simply not true. KDE couldn't push TT to re-license Qt to GPL3 early. They have to maintain a couple of patches in their SVN because TT refuses to integrate them (and I'm not questioning this, I'm just stating the fact). KDE doesn't have a special secret support-channel with TT to get features/bugfixes in faster. In fact we're treated the same way all other OSS developers are treated, we use the same mechanisms as all. Sure there are KDE devs that work for TT, same thing happens in other places (I think redhat sponsors some Gnome devs). > this is why we suffer. this is why I complain. Would you mind sharing how exactly you suffer from a cooperation between the KDE project and TT? Sorry for asking so many questions, its already a bit late so maybe I can just not think "far enough" anymore... Andreas -- [ signature omitted ]
Andreas. i admireyour interest in discussing, but i ran out of energy for today :( > I know that page, I know all those community pages exist. I don't browse > them much and neither did I when I wasn't involved with KDE (other than > as a user of the DE). The main reason is that I don't like those > forum-style discussions, I'm more of a push-person (i.e. I like to get > information pushed towards me, not having to pull them). And if google > shows up a page on one of the sites I surely read that. But really > Google is my main entry point any time I hit a problem I can't solve > with the API docs. i see. Well that will change. I am pushing information towards you right now. > > You don't know the basic ideas of Qt. > > I guess I don't :( Got a Link so that I can educate myself? > > -> storry told by Eirik Chambe-Eng. "parkbench" should ring a bell for > > the real Qt people put there. > Got a link? So far google didn't really help, except that I'm now pretty > well-informed about Qt's and TT's history :) (which is nice anyway). not from the top of my head. i think there is something on tt.com regarding the history. Maybe somone else knows a link? I think there is also a page "how to implement a proper API" or similar by TT. It's good reading to see what Trolls think about code quality (and one of the reasons i started to almost worship Trolltech engineers, hehe) > But wasn't Qt originally about having the same GUI-Toolkit API on all > platforms? Because all alternatives pretty much just sucked? At least > thats what I get from the stuff I read about its history so far. But > then again, I'm not particularly good at reading between the lines... no, you got it exactly right. The alternatives sucked becouse they where biased towards one platform, where of of bad quality, etc. > > And of course for claiming KDE beeing the only source of Qt programs. > Where did I say that KDE is the only source of Qt programs? In fact KDE > is no source of Qt programs whatsoever, its the source of KDE programs > ;) well you said you dont know of any non-kde programs. But as you said earlier its just becouse no one pushed them towards you yet. very good hint. working on that. > > at the same time, KDE has major influence on Trolltech. > > According to this thread thats simply not true. KDE couldn't push TT to > re-license Qt to GPL3 early. They have to maintain a couple of patches > in their SVN because TT refuses to integrate them (and I'm not > questioning this, I'm just stating the fact). KDE doesn't have a special > secret support-channel with TT to get features/bugfixes in faster. In > fact we're treated the same way all other OSS developers are treated, we > use the same mechanisms as all. Well, yeah. I have to admit that the non-kde community simply has no influence becouse there is no unity between them. I'm working on that. > Would you mind sharing how exactly you suffer from a cooperation between > the KDE project and TT? sorry. not again. I'd like to refer to my other 100 earlier mails :P > Sorry for asking so many questions, its already a bit late so maybe I > can just not think "far enough" anymore... yeah,... late. -- [ signature omitted ]
On 12.03.08 00:56:23, Arvid Ephraim Picciani wrote: > Andreas. > i admireyour interest in discussing, but i ran out of energy for today :( :) Somehow I'm not yet tired tonight... > I think there is also a page "how to implement a proper API" or similar by TT. > It's good reading to see what Trolls think about code quality (and one of the > reasons i started to almost worship Trolltech engineers, hehe) Yes, the "thinking" that sits behind the Qt API is pretty amazing in some places. As a developer that has seen far worse API I always feel lucky when I get the chance to use an API as nice as Qt. > > > And of course for claiming KDE beeing the only source of Qt programs. > > Where did I say that KDE is the only source of Qt programs? In fact KDE > > is no source of Qt programs whatsoever, its the source of KDE programs > > ;) > > well you said you dont know of any non-kde programs. But as you said earlier > its just becouse no one pushed them towards you yet. very good hint. working > on that. Not quite. I said I don't know of Qt-only apps for some tasks that you want to do in a DE. I do know of qt-only apps in general. Namely a handful of Qt IDE's, QBankManager (which I use personally since about 3 years) and I've also used qgit a bit. Obviously I use KDE apps, as thats my desktop of choice and one of the main reasons for that is that it wasn't too stressful to adjust my needs coming from a windows background while it still looked quite nice (as opposed to Gnome at the time I started with linux). > > > at the same time, KDE has major influence on Trolltech. > > > > According to this thread thats simply not true. KDE couldn't push TT to > > re-license Qt to GPL3 early. They have to maintain a couple of patches > > in their SVN because TT refuses to integrate them (and I'm not > > questioning this, I'm just stating the fact). KDE doesn't have a special > > secret support-channel with TT to get features/bugfixes in faster. In > > fact we're treated the same way all other OSS developers are treated, we > > use the same mechanisms as all. > > Well, yeah. I have to admit that the non-kde community simply has no influence > becouse there is no unity between them. I'm working on that. But isn't there at least some unity through all those community sites? As you can see I really haven't participated on those much, but I think the community in this list is pretty united. That is people share problems, share information about possible bugs that already got reported (including TT issue numbers)... > > Would you mind sharing how exactly you suffer from a cooperation between > > the KDE project and TT? > > sorry. not again. I'd like to refer to my other 100 earlier mails :P Uhm, yeah I wasn't meaning that you should write again 100s of pages explaining everything in detail. If you're referring to this particular thread I can't recall exact issues, but I'll have a look again tomorrow when my brain is fresh again :) If you're talking about mails on other mails or in "earlier" times, it would be nice if you could share a link to the archives (if there are any). Andreas -- [ signature omitted ]
On Tuesday 11 March 2008 15:45:20 Arvid Ephraim Picciani wrote: > Why does the comunity screem for a more liberal license and nothing > happens, then KDE people poke you and whoops, we have gpl3? KDE people screamed for it for 6 months before it happened. And since I was involved in the GPL3 process, I can tell you this: the decision was made because it benefited Trolltech, not because KDE people asked. > Why does kde have an extra support line and bugs by big projects get > flagged for the next and the next and the next release. or even just get an > rtfm back. (dunno, i love TT support, but aprantly alot of other projects > are ignored) You're contradicting yourself and the very existence of the qt-copy patches. They exist because Trolltech does not apply every single patch sent to us. We have a very difficult position inside Trolltech regarding scheduling of tasks and bumping of them if it didn't make to the release we promised. We're working towards improving that, but it's difficult. Suffice to say we get much more in terms of task than we have the manpower to fix. It's not uncommon for us to receive hundreds of tasks per week. And when I say "tasks", I mean *after* TT support has reviewed the emails and form submissions, understood and confirmed the issue. That means the incoming rate for them is much higher. > Why does kde get money from you? Hell no, i dont want money. I just want > you to admit it. I'm not being cynical here, but there's only one valid reason for giving money: because it makes business sense for Trolltech. You can read many presentations out there that explain why that is so, why KDE is good for Trolltech. I'm not saying that only KDE is good. But KDE is definitely big and visible. > Why does nokia always name kde and open source community in one sentence. Because Nokia has always been associated with GNOME/GTK before. > Why does the planet have an extra kde category? So that we can mark blogs that should be published on Planet KDE. > Maybe becouse you are all KDE developers? Not all, but one third, I'd say. We also have open source developers who do not come from the KDE world, so saying that opensource = KDE for us is nonsense. > Why are the non-Qt applications you folks make not there? Are there any aggregations websites that would like to syndicate Trolltech Labs? Please, let us know. Really, it would be great to have a bigger audience. > Are they filtered by the admin? Are Trolltech developers told to stfu when > they have application ideas that could opose kde? No comments. > Why did Aron do the keynotes at devdays? You do know that he's in the Trolltech payroll, right? > I got this answer so far from some > Troll: "Trolltech wants to show thier deep bounds to the Open Source > community" > right, point proven, KDE==community. Well we where invited for free > entrance too (thanks a lot, sorry for now offending you.) , but by a > specific Troll. and others where not exactly happy with that. Besides i was > asked by two people where my KDE shirt is. After i explained i'm not from > kde, i got a "sory, they said you're an open source developer". wtf? That's a short-sighted view of whoever said that. I agree with you. But I've also told you more than once: you will not be known unless you make yourself known. You wish some recognition, then by all means contact our Open Source Community Manager, Knut Yrvin. He's the person you want to talk to, the one you want to know you. > Why did phonon make it into qt4 athought there where euqal projects out > there? (And after that kde oposes gstreamer. hehe, funny.) What other projects are there that provide a Qt 4 API for multimedia? As for KDE opposing gstreamer, let me clarify this for you: KDE did not want to use gstreamer API in the KDE applications, so we introduced an abstraction layer. For three big reasons: first, gstreamer API is very, very alien to a Qt/KDE developer's point of view. Second, because gstreamer developers cannot promise a source- and/or binary-compatibility for the lifetime of KDE 4. Third, gstreamer isn't that good in cross-platform. The only solution was to abstract it. And then there's this multimedia library, cross-platform, based on Qt 4 and offering a Qt 4-like API up for grabs. Hell, yeah, we included it! And participated in the development, so that it matches our goals as well. > Why do you have a license deal with KDE? It does gain you nothing. (or i > didnt get the point. excuse my ignorance). What does the rest of the > community gain from that? (It only covers Qt/X11). Where do we propose > additons to that? Right, we can't, becouse we are not KDE. Read history, please. The agreement came into existence when Trolltech was a company of 10 people. And like I said before: the only reason for it to exist is because it makes business sense. > Why is desktop integration into KDE strong, and weak into gnome? Funny, KDE developers complained that we talked too much about GNOME integration during the Qt 4.2 release... There's another reason why it integrates better: because KDE integrates into Qt, not the other way around. For instance, the KDE widget style (Oxygen in KDE 4, Plastik in KDE 3) are offered as Qt plugins. So any Qt-based application can use them, for free, without even knowing that they're doing so. The best thing that GNOME has to offer in that area is the Gtk-Qt style engine. I hear it's actually quite good. Besides, it's kind of obvious that we want Qt-based applications to look better integrated, regardless of whether they are pure Qt or if they link to KDE libraries too. Finally, it's *also* kind of obvious that our developers know KDE code a lot better than they do GNOME. > And yes, there where open source projects attemping to do so, but quickly > aborted becouse of massive ranting. Not exactly your fault, but a result of > ignoring the community and letting kde spread their hate. I take that as a personal insult. > Why are feature requests from open source people just flaged as wontfix? > damn i should have made a list. Ignore that point if you dont believe me. See my point above about tasks. -- [ signature omitted ]
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On Tuesday 11 March 2008 15:45:20 Arvid Ephraim Picciani wrote: > André, > > On Tuesday 11 March 2008 14:23:08 you wrote: > > There is no such assumption, so there's nothing to change.. > > I will believe you, if you can answer these questions that people asked me, > and that i asked myself: > > Why does the comunity screem for a more liberal license and nothing > happens, then KDE people poke you and whoops, we have gpl3? This is not what happened. The Trolltech legal team has been involved with the gpl3 for a very long time, even attending at least one conference on it if I recall. The GPL3 wasn't because of a poke from KDE, but a very long and ongoing process. > Why does kde have an extra support line and bugs by big projects get > flagged for the next and the next and the next release. or even just get an > rtfm back. (dunno, i love TT support, but aprantly alot of other projects > are ignored) This is probably because a number of developers at Trolltech came from the KDE community. We already knew the developers, contributed to projects etc. It is only natural that we would then help out KDE. But they don't get super special treatment. Usually when someone from KDE pokes me with a normal bug I tell them to follow the normal bug reporting policies. > Why does kde get money from you? Hell no, i dont want money. I just want > you to admit it. We fully admit it. We sponsor several KDE developers to work on KDE full time. They in turn help to make KDE successful. I don't think we have ever hidden that fact. We have sponsored other project too, such as the Qt Centre contest last year and are looking for more ways to support the community. > Why does nokia always name kde and open source community in one sentence. <guess> People know of KDE? </guess> > Why does the planet have an extra kde category? Maybe becouse you are all > KDE developers? Why are the non-Qt applications you folks make not there? > Are they filtered by the admin? Are Trolltech developers told to stfu when > they have application ideas that could opose kde? When writing the labs blogs there is a little check that you can make if you think it should be tagged as kde. It doesn't do anything other then add the KDE logo to the blog on the right hand side. The blog only appears on planetkde if it is subscribed. For example I have had a recent blog where I mented a kde class so I tagged it with kde and it didn't show up on planetkde. This is because planetkde subscribes to my personal blog rss and not my labs one. > Why did Aron do the keynotes at devdays? <guess> Don't know the real answer to this one, but I can say one thing and that is that he does give kick ass presentations. He is a good speaker that motivates you. </guess> [snip questions I don't know the answer to] > Why do you have a license deal with KDE? It does gain you nothing. (or i > didnt get the point. excuse my ignorance). What does the rest of the > community gain from that? (It only covers Qt/X11). Where do we propose > additons to that? Right, we can't, becouse we are not KDE. <putting on kde hat> There is an effort to have it cover all gpl versions of Qt not just x11 </hat> > Why is desktop integration into KDE strong, and weak into gnome? > And yes, there where open source projects attemping to do so, but quickly > aborted becouse of massive ranting. Not exactly your fault, but a result of > ignoring the community and letting kde spread their hate. At least I have been running Gnome for the past six months or so to help catch any gnome issues the moment they show up. Cleanlook issues, system tray, window manager issues, you name it. The icons support is usually in for Gnome before KDE even. Qt now uses glib and has dbus... We try to follow freedesktop over KDE/Gnome when possible too. Is there some specific example that you have? Hopefully it was an isolated incident. -Benjamin Meyer -- [ signature omitted ]
On Tuesday 11 March 2008 17:10:13 Benjamin Meyer wrote: > > Why does the comunity screem for a more liberal license and nothing > > happens, then KDE people poke you and whoops, we have gpl3? > > This is not what happened. The Trolltech legal team has been involved with > the gpl3 for a very long time, even attending at least one conference on it > if I recall. The GPL3 wasn't because of a poke from KDE, but a very long > and ongoing process. Oh, I had entirely forgotten that! The Trolltech Legal team was part of the GPLv3 *drafting* process. > > Why does kde get money from you? Hell no, i dont want money. I just want > > you to admit it. > > We fully admit it. We sponsor several KDE developers to work on KDE full > time. They in turn help to make KDE successful. I don't think we have > ever hidden that fact. We have sponsored other project too, such as the Qt > Centre contest last year and are looking for more ways to support the > community. I will use this hook to turn this against you: when the Nokia acquisition was announced, we also announced the opensource@xxxxxxxxxxxxx email where you can submit your suggestions for further involvement for either company separate as well as the future merged company. We have, to date, received a total of 10 emails. -- [ signature omitted ]
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