Qtopia-interest Archive, December 2006
Qtopia and the Free Software Community
Message 1 in thread
Hi Folks,
I'm sorry to pester but I have to ask once again what role a/the FOSS
community should take. The GPL copy of the Qtopia applications has
been removed from qtopia.net without any notice on when they will
return. There is no roadmap when Trolltech will open the platform and
how this will happen (e.g. check Sun+Java for a nice roadmap).
Finally there is no commitment that the Free version will stay in
sync with the development of the commercial edition.
I'm writing this as the window for winning a community is
dramatically closing. The OpenMoko effort is lead by people from
within the Free Software Community, 100% dedicated to the development
of Free Software and will bring a Free phone stack to the community
and a Gtk+ based user interface. In contrast to other consumer
electronic this phone is guranteed to be GPL compliant.
This leaves a window of roughly a month for Trolltech to decide on
the future of Qtopia in regard to the involvement of the FOSS
community and present a roadmap.
regards
h.
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Message 2 in thread
Holger Freyther wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> I'm sorry to pester but I have to ask once again what role a/the FOSS
> community should take. The GPL copy of the Qtopia applications has been
> removed from qtopia.net without any notice on when they will return.
Thats because we don't know the time line of when it will return. It
will return when we clear up some licensing issues for the Greenphone.
> There is no roadmap when Trolltech will open the platform and how this
> will happen (e.g. check Sun+Java for a nice roadmap). Finally there is
> no commitment that the Free version will stay in sync with the
> development of the commercial edition.
Trolltech has never publicly published it's developmental roadmap.
I am not allowed to tell you when we plan to release Qtopia Open Source
Edition. I can tell you Qtopia will be released as open source.
> I'm writing this as the window for winning a community is dramatically
> closing. The OpenMoko effort is lead by people from within the Free
> Software Community, 100% dedicated to the development of Free Software
> and will bring a Free phone stack to the community and a Gtk+ based user
> interface. In contrast to other consumer electronic this phone is
> guranteed to be GPL compliant.
Qtopia and Trolltech are lead by professionals, many of whom also come
from the community. Trolltech was one of the first open source companies
around, and we are dedicated to open source. We are also a business.
Sales of commercial licenses drives development so we can release the
code as open source, when it is feasible.
Andrew Morton (kernel hacker) during his keynote address at
linux.conf.au 2005 said when asked what desktop he uses, "I won't use a
desktop that developers are so stupid that they try to write gui code in C"
> This leaves a window of roughly a month for Trolltech to decide on the
> future of Qtopia in regard to the involvement of the FOSS community and
> present a roadmap.
Just because someone else decides to release something similiar to
Qtopia as open source does not mean that there is no place in the
community for Qtopia.
Qtopia is a mature platform with years of development behind it, and is
already shipped on many handsets and hand held devices.
All I can say is to have some patience, wait and see.
and while we all are waiting, spread some holiday cheer and peace
around, there needs to be more of it.
--
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Message 3 in thread
On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 07:07:05PM +1000, Lorn Potter wrote:
> Qtopia is a mature platform with years of development behind it, and is
> already shipped on many handsets and hand held devices.
>
> All I can say is to have some patience, wait and see.
> and while we all are waiting, spread some holiday cheer and peace
> around, there needs to be more of it.
*ROTFL*.
lorn, we respect and appreciate trolltech's efforts - the documentation
for the phone stuff on your site has already proved to be a valuable
resource for the HTC reverse-engineering efforts.
and, although free software people are slightly annoyed that
they don't get the latest version of qt [which totally makes pointless
any debugging and bug-fixing efforts on their part], they still use it
to develop free software applications (like opie+familiar).
what holger is saying is that if trolltech wants to leverage the
efforts of strange people like me, that trolltech has about a month
in which to do so,
here's the thing: trolltech has a commercial angle, and the release
of code on a 6-month back-cycle totally disenfranchises and discourages
free software developers from engaging fully and contributing to qt.
as best i can tell (and please do correct me if i'm wrong because this
is a really important point) the free software releases of qt libraries
are mostly a one-way-push process process from trolltech, outwards.
am i correct in thinking that?
because it's very important. if trolltech wants to engage part-time
non-funded and non-sponsored developers, and create an effective free
software community, then they need to commit 100% to a tried-and-tested
free software community process.
and people _will_ come and help out, knowing that their efforts aren't
going to be side-lined, and knowing that they have an opportunity to
get rid of monoplistic software in the most effective way that they
can.
l.
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Message 4 in thread
the proprietary bits can be managed by creating independent,
self-contained userspace daemons, and then feeding those daemons
data that gets translated into a standards-compliant format.
e.g. the userspace daemon that those xxxxing dicks at global locate are
creating for their (unfortunately) absolutely fantasic and technically
brilliant - and proprietary - Assisted-GPS chipset. [ok, that's
over-the-top. they only have one xxxxing dick and unfortunately he
makes the decisions and tries to deceive and lie to people like me:
the rest of the people there are very good]
l.
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Message 5 in thread
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 07:07:05PM +1000, Lorn Potter wrote:
>
>> Qtopia is a mature platform with years of development behind it, and is
>> already shipped on many handsets and hand held devices.
>>
>> All I can say is to have some patience, wait and see.
>> and while we all are waiting, spread some holiday cheer and peace
>> around, there needs to be more of it.
>
> *ROTFL*.
>
> lorn, we respect and appreciate trolltech's efforts - the documentation
> for the phone stuff on your site has already proved to be a valuable
> resource for the HTC reverse-engineering efforts.
As far as I know, HTC doesn't run Qtopia.
>
> and, although free software people are slightly annoyed that
> they don't get the latest version of qt
huh? Qt open source is released at almost the same time as released to
customers. What isn't the latest version of it?
Yes, it has been too long since an open source Qtopia release, and as I
said before, there will be another Qtopia open source release.
[which totally makes pointless
> any debugging and bug-fixing efforts on their part], they still use it
> to develop free software applications (like opie+familiar).
>
> what holger is saying is that if trolltech wants to leverage the
> efforts of strange people like me, that trolltech has about a month
> in which to do so,
I don't see how there is _only_ one month. Seems more like a vague
threat to me. As I said, just because someone decides to release a
similar open source product does not mean that Qtopia is any less viable.
>
> here's the thing: trolltech has a commercial angle, and the release
> of code on a 6-month back-cycle totally disenfranchises and discourages
> free software developers from engaging fully and contributing to qt.
agreed. Qt does not have a 6 month release cycle, and neither will Qtopia.
>
> as best i can tell (and please do correct me if i'm wrong because this
> is a really important point) the free software releases of qt libraries
> are mostly a one-way-push process process from trolltech, outwards.
>
> am i correct in thinking that?
umm.. no. Ever heard of task tracker?
http://www.trolltech.com/developer/task-tracker/?searchterm=task%20tracker
There are also mailing lists in which to give feedback. If it was a one
way street, do you think Trolltech would give away work that we pay many
developers to write, just for altruism? We release open source because
we believe what we get in return is worth the effort we put into it.
> because it's very important. if trolltech wants to engage part-time
> non-funded and non-sponsored developers, and create an effective free
> software community, then they need to commit 100% to a tried-and-tested
> free software community process.
Trolltech's development process has never been in the open, and we are
one of the few successful open source companies. I don't see many other
business that have their development process in the open. When Maemo
first came out, it was touted as a breath of fresh air in the open
source world. But when you really look at it, there's more proprietary
bits than anything else. and to make matters worse, they use the LGPL so
they don't have to contribute back to the community who's code they are
making money off of. At least with Qt and Qtopia using the GPL, the code
and everything derived from it, will always be free.
--
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Message 6 in thread
lorn, rest-of-trolltech, hi,
let me think carefully about how to (reassuringly) reply best to this.
i think that that there's something more in public relations that's
needed. more communication (from trolltech to free software developers)
about what's going on.
but before blathering on in detail i want to think a bit more
about what to say. good stuff, i promise :)
l.
On Fri, Dec 08, 2006 at 04:35:22AM +1000, Lorn Potter wrote:
>
>
> Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> >On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 07:07:05PM +1000, Lorn Potter wrote:
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Message 7 in thread
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> lorn, rest-of-trolltech, hi,
>
> let me think carefully about how to (reassuringly) reply best to this.
> i think that that there's something more in public relations that's
> needed. more communication (from trolltech to free software developers)
> about what's going on.
There will be, in due time.
but I am not really allowed to comment on when things are going to
happen. For one, if I say a certain version will get released on such
and such date, and this release doesn't happen, you and everybody else
will yell about how I said it would get released on such and such date.
For two, there is now also the potential for insider trading misconduct,
which I am not about to stake my, my employers, or your freedom on.
So, I will say it again, please have patience.
>
> but before blathering on in detail i want to think a bit more
> about what to say. good stuff, i promise :)
>
> l.
>
> On Fri, Dec 08, 2006 at 04:35:22AM +1000, Lorn Potter wrote:
>>
>> Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
>>> On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 07:07:05PM +1000, Lorn Potter wrote:
>
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>
>
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Message 8 in thread
> will yell about how I said it would get released on such and such date.
> For two, there is now also the potential for insider trading misconduct,
> which I am not about to stake my, my employers, or your freedom on.
>
> So, I will say it again, please have patience.
's'ok, lorn - i understand.
l.
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[ signature omitted ]
Message 9 in thread
On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 08:53:30AM +0100, Holger Freyther wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> I'm sorry to pester but I have to ask once again what role a/the FOSS
> community should take. The GPL copy of the Qtopia applications has
> been removed from qtopia.net without any notice on when they will
> return.
ljp mentioned i think it was a couple of weeks ago on this list
that it was removed when it was discovered that it contained some
code that was not GPL licensed: some manufacturers had not
sorted out licensing, something like that.
> This leaves a window of roughly a month for Trolltech to decide on
> the future of Qtopia in regard to the involvement of the FOSS
> community and present a roadmap.
i support what holger is saying.
FIC have hired some quite highly-motivated free software developers,
motivated because they realise the opportunity that they're being
given and being told 'go for it'. they don't need much more
encouragement and we're absolutely routing for them 100%.
the thing is: FIC is listening to them because sean has a vision to
make the most of free software, and is prepared to commit to the usual
free software development process and environment (once the initial
hardware and software reaches key internal milestones).
and with those experienced and motivated free software developers on
board, as project leaders, it's going to be very difficult to derail
that.
as you are no doubt aware, succcessful free software projects need
several things:
* sponsorship of some free software developers as de-facto leaders,
basically people who can keep the code and plans in short-term
electrical memory of their brains instead of chemical memory
(long-term storage)
* a source code repository which everyone has read-access to and
the free software de-facto leaders have the right to decide
who gets write-access
* a decent charter like the ubuntu one or the one we planned for
the opendce foundation, which stops things like the samba leaders
from being vicious, and stops things like the pointless debian
fights.
* communications channels that tie all the three above together.
what holger is basically saying is that none of these things have
happened, yet, for the greenphone.
a couple of months back, i thought it might be a good idea to set up some
resources myself, and then i stopped - because i went 'hang on, i've not
got the money to employ anyone full-time to work on the greenphone, and
i am already full-time employed myself, therefore i cannot keep hundreds
of thousands of lines of code in my short-term memory like i used to do
for samba-tng, therefore i cannot qualify as a de-facto project leader'.
so - yes.
trolltech.
we really appreciate the efforts you've gone to so far.
i am especially grateful that you've provided documentation of and a
userspace implementation of the TS07.10 gsm multiplexing thing (because
there's a bit of a bunfight over motorola's stupid unmaintainable
entirely-kernel-space implementation which has inspired harald to do
a mixed user-and-kernelspace implementation, fortunately).
but you really really reeeeally need to think: are we going to commit
to engaging the free software community in some way, following FIC's
example? you must have people internally who understand the code that
you've developed: appoint one of them as the de-facto free software
development leader, and give us a wiki and a svn repository to play
with.
i got a domain name you can play with (open0f0fon.org ha ha, get it?
oops, sorry :) ) or pick a better one or just use
greenphone.qtopia.net or something _anything_ but yes, i want to finish
off by echoing what holger is saying: you've got about a month before
FIC releases openmoko.org and then the intelligent and highly motivated
but unfunded and unsponsored people like myself (*) will focus our efforts
on backing FIC, not trolltech.
hey, that might even be fine with you: i don't know.
but it's not been announced what widget set openmoko will use (i hope
it's not gtk please let it not be gtk anything gnome-like needs to die)
and so you might be taking a bit of a risk.
l.
p.s. (*) six years, so far, and counting. currently full-time employed
and therefore distracted from being able to fully concentrate on writing
free software code. i'm pretty pissed off about being taken away
from using my gifts and abilities to help free people world-wide from
proprietary software, but the work i'm currently doing has a different
kind of focus on helping people, and i get paid a lot of money to do
that, so it's kind-of ok.
--
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